http://www.indy.com/posts/8163 en-us EuroPmP Yeah, we believe that vandalism is going to assist in reforming government corruption. We are also planning to intercept alien radio transmissions from mars later tonight. Seriously man, do you think about whether or not your thoughts are intelligent contributions to the thread before submitting content, or are you just trying to make an ass of yourself? Tue, 20 May 2008 15:19:00 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22689 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22689 randydaytona Vandalism is a worthwhile cause?! Tue, 20 May 2008 14:37:59 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22682 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22682 EuroPmP Dear Modern Mom, Originally, the discussion started as an attempt to locate other individuals that are ready to contribute to a worthwhile cause. Obviously it is an idea that grabs local interest. While complete restructure and organization isn't feasible without civil war, it is more intelligent to use the channels already in place to enact revitalization. In order to accomplish this we must have a central goal. In short, that goal is now starvation of the washington cash cow. The only way to do this is reduce consumption by investing in & growing mass transit. In order to flip the switch those interested need to convene and write up a distinct plan of action. What do the rest of you think? Tue, 20 May 2008 14:33:58 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22681 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22681 Dexter Two things and then I'm done. First, I think you're promoting graffiti becuase you asked where you could join with the person responsible in their "revolution". I'm glad you finally made clear your stance on that issue though. Secondly, I was making a generalization about change for change sake and unfortunately you took it personally. Tue, 20 May 2008 14:22:55 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22680 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22680 kristofer that's what we're discussing here.. what are you doing about it? Tue, 20 May 2008 14:11:05 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22679 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22679 kristofer Indeed, bicycle's are excellent if you live close enough. I happen to use the bike racks IndyGo provides during my commute because there's quite a distance between the route and my office. Good suggestion Dexter. The obvious reason we should be impatient with small change is because our economy isn't going to hold out for the time it takes the bureaucracy to make adequate political changes. It could take years to deploy an effective transit system in the metro area.. meanwhile we deal with the cost of fuel? I still don't understand why you seem to think I'm promoting graffiti. Non-sanctioned graffiti is vandalism. It's been a theme repeated throughout this thread. And change for change sake.. seems ridiculous to me too. But I never even implied changing because of.. change. Be careful looking over that precipice; you might just fall down here with the rest of us. Tue, 20 May 2008 14:07:02 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22676 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22676 caralyn while i've kept up on this thread until now, I had not contributed. Long winded comments are not normally my thing. But will someone PLEASE explain how the creative (albeit illegal) expressions of the "deep" tags in Central and Eastside Indy are at all related to petrol boycott discussions??? You people seem to have a bevy of strong opinions but no focus (alas...a relatively common denominator in online discussions) Stop moaning about oil prices and go do something about it. Tue, 20 May 2008 13:58:16 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22674 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22674 Dexter To touch on an idea from an earlier post of mine, encourage responsible activism. While grafitti may be seen as art by some, it's not a very unifying act. It certainly doesn't seem to promote fuel conservation in the form you have addressed. I started a thread about "Bike to Work Week" last week. There's an idea for fuel conservation. Did you know that May is the national Bike to Work Month? Or check out my post on Freecycle, another way to affect change through a socially responsible means. Fuel conservation and energy independence are all tied to a larger goal of systematic change. Every little step towards awareness is good, but change for change sake is a bad idea. Tue, 20 May 2008 13:23:26 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22671 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22671 kristofer Any ideas though? I can correct the semantics in my next thread.. Tue, 20 May 2008 13:05:52 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22669 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22669 Drinky_McGee I think this would be the perfect time to introduce religion into the conversation. Tue, 20 May 2008 13:04:15 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22668 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22668 Dexter If I've made you angry, then I apologize. I'm just trying to point out the failures of those who went before you lest you make the same mistakes. You will never get the right answers unless you can ask the right questions. That's the basis for my posts. Addressing the weakness of an argument can lead to a stronger argument in the end. Call me a cynic...I've been called worse. Tue, 20 May 2008 12:59:50 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22667 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22667 kristofer Indeed, you haven't provided any ideas. You only complain and philosophize about the impossibilities. You're complaints and failure to contribute is the divisive factor here. Why must we argue anyway? Cynicism never accomplished anything more than making people angry. Instead of making this such a personal attack, why not provide a viable solution? There's no need for us to fight about this. Tue, 20 May 2008 12:22:10 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22663 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22663 Dexter More dismissive tripe. You talk about unity but readily divide. Tue, 20 May 2008 12:16:35 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22661 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22661 EuroPmP The focus is unity. Sure, we will encounter disagreements when discussing certain subjects. What we need to do at this point is identify something we do agree on and run the message like our lives depend on it. What is one thing we agree on? Well, lets start with the fact that the major oil companies pulled over 120 billion for fiscal year 2007. Every American feels the pressure of the ballooning oil costs. It is burdening good people with dilemmas that they shouldn't have to face. We can change it by changing our lifestyles. We can liberate ourselves when we start thinking objectively and disregard our traditional school of subjective thought. Tue, 20 May 2008 11:32:41 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22648 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22648 kristofer There's no overzealous search for revolution against the man. It has everything to do with oil companies exploiting us though. If everything were good I've have nothing to think about revolutionizing during my commute. But by the time I get to the north side of town I realize it's impossible. There's just too many soccer mom's driving their hummers to the grocery store. It's not a social revolution in a sense that we militarize and take over.. but we're definitely better than this. The deep tags are just a way to get people talking [imho, I certainly didn't put them there..]. You're reading comprehension may need a checkup. Tue, 20 May 2008 11:26:08 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22647 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22647 Dexter I read the whole painfully long thread from the start. Your overzealous search for revolution is causing you to assign some kind of society-changing ideals to random occurences. We all get that your ride the bus to stick it to the man. We all get that the world would be a better place if fuel wasn't so expensive. Your dismissive attitude toward anyone who questions your motives and focus is the reason you will never succeed. You can't unite by dismissing those who may not agree with everything you write. Graffiti may promote unity for those that agree with vandalism, but obviously it turns off a segment of the population that may otherwise agree with the message. Not all participants of your planned revolution are going to be on the front line, making a scene. Give real unity a though. Encourage socially responsible acts of defiance and you'll gain much more support and unity. Tue, 20 May 2008 10:49:15 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22644 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22644 EuroPmP It seems this thread is nearly exhausted, however, I feel compelled to share my perspective. When perusing the above comments we can all agree that there are common denominators. Most citizens here in the inordinately wealthy, immensely powerful United States would agree that we need change. Yet, it seems that we are all stumped when it comes to facilitating/initiating our reconstruction of current society. All we have currently is trust in corrupt government officials who write bankrupt policies which serve to increase their own wealth and divide society. Kristofer is right, the power to change the situation is in our hands. Yes, we can change it! We can unite and change our streets, neighborhoods, and cities! It will require a massive paradigm shift regarding our collective lifestyle. The American lifestyle will continue to devour oil just as rapidly as the cost per barrel is rising. Here is the problem. Our American mentality assists us with abandoning rationalism. Logic affords that not every commodity in the world is infinite. Why are we feeling the heavy blows dealt by the absurdly wealthy politicians who have controlling interests in oil? The answer is simple. We didn't make provision for this inevitable crisis back in the 70s. Who do we thank for that? The government officials that we elected and supported. Instead of developing public transit and expanding our edifices to reinforce this standard of travel, we selfishly clung to the pioneer stance and insisted on every man/woman for his/her self. Now we have a soccer mom sporting an Escalade as her daily driver, Daddy drives a BMW to commute to work, and 16 year old Zoe has a late model passenger sedan that she drives back and forth to school every day. Do we honestly think that the Earth boasts of an endless supply of crude oil? We all know the gold rush eventually ended..... We can change our plight when we adopt new precedents. In other cultures, many that could afford an automobile decline to purchase one because of the costs associated with maintaining/operating it. What would happen if the majority of the population in the key cities of the US started thinking along these lines? What if they pushed the government into investing in public transport and held rallies to underline their sincerity? The demand would decrease, and subsequently the cost would be affected in a favorable manner. In the interim we might take note of the influence we wield as one voice! Why continue to struggle and fight through life on your own when it is possible to grasp arms and create an indomitable avenue for a shift in our country?! I would choose to make myself available. =) Tue, 20 May 2008 10:36:46 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22643 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22643 kristofer the graffiti bandit on the east side isn't asking for anything. the graffiti promotes unity, and I'm taking it a step further by talking about uniting for a purpose. have you actually read the thread? Tue, 20 May 2008 10:25:57 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22642 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22642 Firebelly Provocative Stuff Kristofer! Keep it comin' my man,, Mon, 19 May 2008 23:53:42 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22614 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22614 kristofer indeed Mon, 19 May 2008 22:26:37 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22607 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22607 Dexter So the graffiti bandit on the Eastside is asking us to conserve oil? It all makes sense now. Mon, 19 May 2008 21:30:25 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22604 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22604 kristofer You're idea would work if consumers were in control of production. Unfortunately increasing the supply isn't really an option. But by supporting public transit (with your dollars) and pressuring local politicians we could have decent transit system pretty quickly. The current situation would be fine if the cost of oil weren't increasing. I started riding IndyGo daily in October. It might just be the weather, but it seems more people are riding now versus then. I don't know the actual numbers anyway. The routes I take are always pretty busy though. Mon, 19 May 2008 21:14:56 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22603 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22603 Dads56 So Kristofer.... what's the answer? Public transportation is getting a lo of press in Fishers. It's a step in the right direction. Seems like all I hear though is Indy metro ridership keeps dwindling. It would be interesting to know what the numbers have been the last 3 - 4 months. In my opinion, Indy lacks the density for Public transproation to be really viable. How about opening exploration? Building some refineries? Reducing consumption is the ultimate goal. Increasing supply would have the same effect, but with quicker results. Mon, 19 May 2008 20:06:09 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22602 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22602 kristofer Read the entire thread. The point we should all try to connect on is oil. It's not about how much we have or whether we're better now than before. Slaves were better off in 1850 than in 1750. That doesn't justify slavery though. We should always strive to be a better nation. As gas costs rise, so will food costs (and everything else). We'll end up losing what we have if we continue living this way. The problem is very complex though. It starts with oil primarily because oil is the blood of our economy. It's the primary point of control. It dictates the cost of anything else that's tangible, in turn controlling anyone who has to rely on it. Consumers can control that market by using less fuel. But as soon as consumers see the power in connecting it will affect economies and politics all over the world. Mon, 19 May 2008 18:35:45 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22599 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22599 kristofer I was thinking along the lines of focusing on public transit and ride shares to lower the demand for fuel. I realize the distribution of goods relies on foreign oil, but the vast majority of fuel consumption has to be commuters. I think the easiest and most feasible solution is to promote ride sharing and pressure local politicians for a more effective public transit system. I do agree that we shouldn't be importing oil when we can mine it ourselves. Mon, 19 May 2008 18:20:12 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22597 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22597 randydaytona Drill ANWR! We can do it to buy time while we transition to better types of fuel. Mon, 19 May 2008 16:51:56 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22595 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22595 Dexter What problem exactly are you hoping to solve? I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but I get tired of hearing people clamor for change without setting some specific targets. Change for change sake isn't always good. I know you want to start the revolution, but overhauling every system in place isn't practical. If you could narrow it down, people could actually have a discussion with you. I know you mention lowering fuel prices, which you tie into food prices...so maybe that's where you want to start. I agree that fuel prices need to be reasonable, but how can you argue that food is overpriced when even the poor in this country are obese. We have more food available at lower prices than any other time in American history. Mon, 19 May 2008 16:50:57 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22594 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22594 kristofer That logic has been expressed already in this thread. I really don't care to discuss the difference between political, social and economic philosophies. I want people to discuss solving the problem. Together. Mon, 19 May 2008 16:36:02 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22589 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22589 kristofer Indeed, different ideas aren't all bad. That's why the thread is here. My ideas will work, but are there any other ideas? How can we work together to consume less fuel? That will lower demand so that prices level off at something reasonable. Then our goods and services won't increase like crazy.. Anything clever? Mon, 19 May 2008 16:32:36 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22588 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22588 Dexter Quality of life is relative. If we gave everyone a house, food to eat and clothing, people would complain that they didn't have enough. If we were all millionaires, only a trillionaire would be considered rich. There will always be a low man on the totem pole. We can change the system, but we can't change reality. Americans today have more than any other people in the history of this planet. History never dealt with the current oxymoron of a fat poor person. In the past if you were poor, you didn't eat. If things got really bad, you may have starved to death. Not much starving to death these days. Mon, 19 May 2008 16:28:53 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22587 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22587 randydaytona Yeah, I'm sorry for calling you a moron. I want a better world too. I guess we just have different ways on achieving that. Of course mine is the right way ;-) Mon, 19 May 2008 16:26:19 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22586 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22586 kristofer Why does this thread need to be so insulting randydaytona? I believe in a better world. Why are you fighting that? You could provide some ideas instead of opposing all mine. Mon, 19 May 2008 16:23:21 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22585 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22585 kristofer You're absolutely right.. I don't have any personal qualms with my standard of living. I don't have a degree. I'm more valuable than any entry level CS graduate. My personal experience in the field is far more valuable than any degree. It took the same amount of time (four years) to develop the necessary skills. The difference between us I suppose, is that you graduated with debt, and I just started the job straight out. I do feel pretty strongly about the standard of living in general though. I choose to ride public transit because it's important to support. Especially considering the alternative is buying foreign oil (yeah, buses run on locally produced fuel from farms..) and supporting an industry that's exploiting people. That said, some people aren't capable of more. That certainly doesn't mean they deserve less because of it. I'm not poor or broke. But I feel guilty because there are hard working people with unfortunate circumstances. It didn't come easy to me either. Getting professional experience and then actually being screwed over by some companies motivated me to escape the rat race. The point of all this, is that no one person can expect anything from their government, their economy, their employer, their bank, or their investments. You make what you have, and together we can make a lot better life for everyone. Mon, 19 May 2008 16:16:30 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22583 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22583 Victory33 We can argue this all our lives... I write software as well...and I haven't noticed a hit in salary in the last few years...the exact opposite has occurred for me. I'm working on certifications and making myself more marketable to my clients. I try to learn new technologies or ones few others know, so I can corner a market in experience...I continue to strive to educate and better myself. I've only been in the industry for a 4 years, but if your making anyway near the average salary for a software designer, you probably don't have much to gripe about. Going to college most certainly improves a persons chances of success, it opens soo many doors that aren't open to people with similar experience or resume. The person with the degree wins almost every time. It is based off supply and demand, so people should learn a high demand skill. Right now it's computers. A great number of the upper echelon, you dislike, got there by working hard and putting up with the same stuff that the 'actual' laborers have. You aren't just appointed CEO for being rich, your knowledge and experience drive your demand in the workplace and get you promoted to a position to even be nominated as a CEO. I'm not a slave either, I don't live as a commodity. I actually don't even really care about how much I make, as long as I can live comfortably and not paycheck to paycheck. I save my money and spend it wisely so that I never get in a position where I need a hand me down from others...I plan ahead and handle my end of the deal. I treat everyone as equal as I can, but when you are being fair, you must also hold everyone accountable and not blame a government or society for not continuing to make up for the people who don't contribute and expect something for nothing. We all can't have high paying jobs, but we can all strive to be better off than we currently are...people need to have the desire to change them self before they try and change a nation. Mon, 19 May 2008 16:01:49 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22579 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22579 randydaytona If by excuses you mean facts and logic/reasoning then yes. Mon, 19 May 2008 16:01:01 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22578 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22578 baggles I read an article that said conservative people are much happier in their lives than liberals because they can just explain everything away. Basically they make excuses for anything bad, putting the blame on someone/something else, anything to make it not their fault. Sort of like the whole poor people are poor because they chose to thing. Anyone who is content with the way our nation is right now is really explaining a LOT away... Mon, 19 May 2008 15:54:22 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22573 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22573 randydaytona Don't give me that. I care a lot about other people. I don't want someone to have a s---ty life. I DON'T care about people who are the victims of their own poor choices and want to do nothing to correct them other than bitch. Mon, 19 May 2008 15:30:53 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22570 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22570 randydaytona You know what will be hilarious is when kristofer wins a prize because he earned so many points on this post. He had a product everyone wanted to buy so he's loading up on points. That's capitalism but he'll claim it's "karma" or "the work of the gods." Mon, 19 May 2008 15:29:37 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22568 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22568 randydaytona I'm glad you understand the concept of Supply & Demand! So since manufacturing is becoming more automated, there is no demand to pay some moron $20+ an hour to watch a conveyor belt go by them for hour a day. If you're career choice is growing to where there are too many then here is what you do: Learn new skills, work hard, do anything that gives you advantage over the rest. YOU CAN CONTROL THAT. As for your thing on celebs, concerts, etc not changing the world. Yeah it's kind of retarded that they make that much for doing what they do but the DEMAND causes that. Remember? If some producer can make a lot of money on a movie if he gets some A-List star he's going to open his wallet to do so. Did you ever think that the upper echelon makes "all the money" while the world does the actual labor because they are working SMARTER? They took the risks to create or run a business. They know it's economically better to have other people do the work. People like Victory and I will continue to market and improve ourselves for better jobs so we can live the way we want to and not have to support retarded ideas like socialism. Seriously you are the biggest moron on this site. That's hard to do but somehow you've managed. Mon, 19 May 2008 15:27:01 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22567 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22567 kristofer Whether it's meant to keep people poor or not is irrelevant. I don't believe that people want to take advantage of other people. It's just circumstance, but that doesn't mean it can't be corrected. There is more weeping in the world than you can understand. Mon, 19 May 2008 15:24:11 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22566 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22566 kristofer Excuse me, but not everyone can work high paying jobs. In fact, the value of a job is simply based on supply and demand, just like all other commodities. I write software, and there's now an over abundance of developers in the world, so the value of this particular career has depreciated in the last few years. The same goes for medical doctors, nurses, masons, accountants, or any other career oriented job that exists. Going to college doesn't improve any persons chance of success in life. Some college dropouts happen to be the richest people in the world. Learning a new skill doesn't make one more valuable. It's all based on supply and demand. If the skill is desirable it may be worth more, but eventually all markets become over-saturated. When considering labor as a commodity you realize that even the hard working middle class Americans are at risk of losing it all to poor economic policy in the USA. I don't know where the idea that celebrities, concerts, or other happenings will be changing the world anytime soon. Like I've been saying all along, it takes the people. "If the other 98% would do something with their life and not rely on everyone to hand them money or second chances, they could have money too." - this statement just isn't true. The upper echelon has all the money because the rest of the world does the actual labor. If you haven't read and compared the differences between Historical Materialism and The Wealth of the Nations then you really don't have any authority here. Read a book. "sell yourself and market yourself properly." - you already have the wrong idea here.. I'm not a slave. Especially not for wages. I provide value to the world without selling my time. You go ahead and keep on marketing yourself for that better job, living life as a commodity. Meanwhile I'll be building systems that work for me. It's not about how much money a man makes or whether he's equal to his neighbor. There's no gauge for that anyway. We as people have control of our economy and our government, if we'd just connect and take it back. Mon, 19 May 2008 15:13:59 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22565 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22565 randydaytona Who decides what is fair value for their labor? The person paying them should! They base that salary on what others are paying for a similar job. It's not some conspiracy meant to keep people poor. There's a reason the wealthy are wealthy. Sure a few inherited it but that money came from somewhere. At one point someone took a huge risk and was rewarded for it. So should the worker be the one who decides what they are worth? Then I can go in to any company and even though I am a recent grad I'll just tell them I think I'm worth 100k and they have to pay it. That seems really fair. Get a clue. Mon, 19 May 2008 15:13:15 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22564 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22564 randydaytona Thank you for posting this so I didn't have to! I'm usually the only person on here defending capitalism. Mon, 19 May 2008 15:08:50 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22563 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22563 Victory33 So spread the wealth evenly? They call that communism don't they? And it never seems to work out all that well. If the other 98% would do something with their life and not rely on everyone to hand them money or second chances, they could have money too. It takes hard work and effort to make money, you might have to do a job you don't like and go to college. You may have to even listen in high school and not skip class, live your life right from the start and not hope to come into cash late in the game. There are working class citizens that work really hard and get paid crap, but maybe it's because they didn't want to go to college or learn a trade or anything new...who's fault is that? College loans can create hundreds of thousands of dollars down the line...I got one, it sucked paying it back, but it was well worth it. People need to go out there and get your fair wage yourself....don't take any hand me downs from the revolution...sell yourself and market yourself properly. College or no college it's possible to succeed...get a trade or something your good at. I know good mechanics that make 100K+..off hard work and really being good at what they do. If all else fails, learn a computer skill...it's money in the bank son! Nothing is free...so you might want to stop expecting graffiti, celebrity messages or musical rallies to help lower the cost of gas...and go look for a profession that pays well enough so gas prices don't hurt as bad. Mon, 19 May 2008 14:40:29 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22562 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22562 kristofer No, that only furthers the economic divide. Have you failed to read the news? Have you noticed a rising cost in goods and services? Do you realize our economy is on the fritz? The rich get richer.. and capitalism is an SUV that's just about squandered all the fuel. There's only so much money in the world. If two percent of the population have ninety-eight percent of the money, a better job is really just a perspective after all. How many working class citizens does it take to make a wealthy man? How many employees do you have? Do they have health insurance? A place to live? An automobile? Are their children healthy and happy? Are they paid the FULL VALUE for their labor? Get a clue. Mon, 19 May 2008 14:11:55 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22560 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22560 Dexter Some would argue that revolutions need not be united by a common cause or even awareness of the other participants. The revolutionary spark could be a single event or character, but could also be a myriad of causes only acted upon at a personal level. The issues that may motivate someone in the Midwest to rally for change could be quite different than those motivating someone on the West Coast, yet their goal would be the same. They would be unknowingly united for the same cause, yet for different reasons. Mon, 19 May 2008 14:08:18 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22559 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22559 kristofer Indeed.. there are special people or events that initiate change though. There's a catalyst in every revolution that sparks a change in people and unites them for a cause. In our current situation the catalyst is so abstract that there's nothing in particular to target as a scapegoat. It's important to realize that we are responsible for our government and our way of life. It's our job as citizens to discuss problems rationally and make an effort to transcend them. That's why our constitution can evolve as our circumstances change. It takes all of us to make it better though. Mon, 19 May 2008 14:03:22 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22558 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22558 randydaytona People can combat the great economic divide by getting a better job. Mon, 19 May 2008 14:01:35 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22556 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22556 Dexter Centuries ago philosophers pondered the same question. Sadly, not much has changed. I'm not sure anyone can really answer the question about what it will take. Change may be gradual and almost imperceptible. I know you fancy the idea of revolution, but not all revolutions happen quickly or obviously. This one may even be underway as we speak if people are changing the way they think and behave. Mon, 19 May 2008 13:51:23 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22555 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22555 kristofer Graffiti aside, what's it take to get people to connect and combat the rising cost of living, government corruption and the great economic divide? Mon, 19 May 2008 13:33:53 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22554 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22554 Drinky_McGee Strapping a bomb to yourself takes balls the size of Detroit. The fact that you disagree with something that someone is doing doesn't make it cowardly. Mon, 19 May 2008 13:17:03 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22553 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22553 randydaytona That's like saying terrorism is courageous because they do it for "self expression." Mon, 19 May 2008 12:17:00 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22547 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22547 Victory33 I fully support graffiti as it is one of the four elements of the hip-hop culture. But I feel legal walls are the best place for it, like the one's you'll find in Broad Ripple alleys. I know a lot of the local graf artists in town and for them it's rarely a message they want to put up, it's either about art or getting their name up in the city. Even the political messages throw ups are just another way of getting your name up under a veil of some sort of message. Wheat paste posters can be removed much easier than spray paint, so I don't mind those as much. Mon, 19 May 2008 11:19:17 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22534 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22534 Dads56 My biggest problem is that is so disrespectful, so much so that, at least for me, any possible importance of the message is lost by the act of invading and violating another's property, I think today there is more opportunity than ever to convey a message. In the history of this city and country have there ever been more available forums to communicate a message? youtube, facebook, music venues, progressive art galleries, publications and forums just like this one. I've been here since '72 and I believe there have never been more opportunities than there are today. I really think the motivation is vandalism, not cause. Mon, 19 May 2008 10:00:51 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22528 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22528 Drinky_McGee I may or may not have allegedly done some tagging in my day. You can call it wrong. You can call it stupid. But to call it cowardly is just silly. Taking a risk for the sake of self-expression is considerably more courageous than sticking to only what's socially acceptable. The only problem I have with graffiti is when it's uncreative. For example, I don't need to see "Reginald Loves Boo Boo". I'm happy for Reginald, don't get me wrong, but his statement doesn't really inspire. Mon, 19 May 2008 06:44:55 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22517 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22517 Jet Graffiti is for cowards. If you want people to unite, give them a place and a voice to unite. Don't junk up the city. This isn't Sarajevo. Mon, 19 May 2008 01:34:34 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22513 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22513 primavera Is there a common denominator between graffitied walls and cigarette butts? In other words, littering? And why are some people so trashy? Don't they care about their neighborhoods? Sun, 18 May 2008 22:05:17 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22507 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22507 randydaytona LOL, you want to live in a "diverse" neighborhood. If by diverse you meant full of crime then ok. Sun, 18 May 2008 14:00:21 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22504 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22504 deb5683 That's a problem though...I don't WANT to move north or south, though it'd be easier. I want to live in a diverse neighborhood. The problem with that seems to be the punks driving out people who have the income to keep the eastside of town a vibrant part of the city. Stores close or move to where theres more money. Or they have such a paltry variety of stock that those who live here are forced to shop elsewhere, making the problem worse. IT STINKS! Sun, 18 May 2008 11:18:28 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22502 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22502 nikrobertsmedia I grew up around there and it has always been there. I remember when WISH TV paid for it to all be covered up but by the matter of weeks it was there again... Just a bad side of town. Stay North and South and you will be good. Sat, 17 May 2008 15:05:24 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22485 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22485 deb5683 As an Eastsider I haven't seen this particular brand of graffiti - probably because I tune it out as gang stuff. I'll look for it - anything positive is better than gangbanger stuff. Maybe somebody could suggest to whoever is doing it to do it OVER gang graffiti and not all over the side of somebodies home or business. And public transportation in this city blows... Sat, 17 May 2008 14:39:52 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22483 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22483 kristofer I don't condone graffiti by any means. The message is important though. Especially considering that people feel alone in the battle against economic disparity. The point is, we as consumers choose our economic fate. We vote with our dollars, and we can choose whether or not to support industries that take advantage of us. I think the deep graffiti around the east side is probably someone's attempt to get people talking about this kind of stuff. Consumers can change the economy by uniting and supporting companies that benefit local communities instead of the wealth of big city venture capitalists. I always hear excuses about how it can't happen because of the people factor, but it's necessary that we connect. Even people that don't drive are affected by the rapidly increasing cost of fuel. If we cut back demand, oil company profits will fall. The difficulty here is that we have to connect to make these changes. Cosmopolitan people can use public transit to commute. The buses are actually pretty efficient with a monthly pass (buying a daily pass is a hassle). If more people ride they'll add more routes and more buses. If it grows enough we may even get a train system of sorts. Shared ride systems use much less fuel and benefit local economies in unbelievable ways. If the bus isn't an option, try arranging rides with neighbors and colleagues. There's no need for everyone to drive everyday. We all live in the same city after all. [/soapbox] Sat, 17 May 2008 12:19:13 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22482 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22482 Dads56 I don't agree with your view of the sprayer being a crusader for a cause.... The times I have dealt with graffiti, It really wasn't about art and cause. It has always been more to do vandalism. It's more like busting out windows with crowbars than promoting a cause. Sat, 17 May 2008 09:51:25 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22479 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22479 Dads56 Firebelly, I see graffiti as someone altering another's property without their consent, not art. It doesn't matter if you think the message is noble or artful. If I think pink cars are beautiful and help raise awareness for the fight against breast cancer, does that make it OK for me to krylon your car and bike pink? Sat, 17 May 2008 09:46:47 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22478 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22478 thelaughingman Res ipsa loquitur. Fri, 16 May 2008 21:35:59 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22470 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22470 randydaytona It's still vandalism and AGAINST THE LAW. Some people don't want the walls spray painted with "art" where they live. Fri, 16 May 2008 15:12:00 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22460 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22460 kristofer thank you bob, for bringing it all back home.. Fri, 16 May 2008 13:39:08 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22452 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22452 thelaughingman If graffiti and similar public art serves as a medium for the disenfranchised masses to speak out, so be it. It is still a far better thing than attempting to play on with this ubiquitous, pretentious sense of simpering, superficial fraternity. And yes, if tax dollars are a concern, there is a whole world of options to siphon your disagreement at, some of which are far more significant, than graffiti. Fri, 16 May 2008 13:35:21 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22451 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22451 Drinky_McGee There are gay gangs? I didn't think they existed outside of West Side Story, but if you say so. Do they eat at English Ivy's? Fri, 16 May 2008 07:16:41 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22430 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22430 diamonddiva 3 cheers for the graffiti artist on the east side who is spraying "deep love" on everything. FINALLY, someone who isn't into spraying gang graffiti on every garage and fence in my neighborhood! One of this person's messages is "gangs r gay"-I would suggest that's a GOOD message, and I personally am very happy to see someone who ISN'T into the gangsta thing! I don't give 2 cents about the economics of the whole thing-I LIVE in this area and I'm sick to death of being literally held hostage by the thugs and gangsta wanna-be's who are destroying my beautiful area. Keep on spraying your "deep love" message-its one we ALL need to hear! Fri, 16 May 2008 04:15:45 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22429 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22429 kristofer There's no need to be so defensive. I'm not blaming my personal problems on anyone. We all have some common issues though, and it's about time we the people took control of our failing economic and governmental systems. Fri, 16 May 2008 00:52:37 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22426 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22426 randydaytona Yeah, I'm the one blaming my problems on someone else calling for a "revolution".....Those viewpoints are simple - yes, and also true. As for those things yeah it sucks we have to spend so much money on them but I'd rather my tax money go to things that benefit me, all three of those, then paying to clean up someone's vandalism or someone shooting out babies she can't afford. Thu, 15 May 2008 22:44:12 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22421 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22421 Firebelly Graffiti is great. Love it. Bring more. Better than more sprint ads. I agree with Kristofer. The graffiti in Broadripple and the Monon trail is awesome. Its our public art. If people are disenfranchised and want to make art - its cool. If it defaces a building - then maybe the building needs to proactively get graffiti on it anyway. As for the guy with the simple viewpoints on demand and inflation - man I envy your viewpoint. Id probably be a lot happier if I could blame everything on somene else too. And if you're so concerned about your taxes - how do you deal with the huge colts stadium, the cost overrun on the library - wait whats the monthly cost of the war in Iraq? Dude - its graffiti. Relax. Thu, 15 May 2008 20:10:11 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22414 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22414 kristofer Supply and demand have everything to do with the rising cost of living for consumers. Arabs don't drive Toyota's, they drive Bentley's. It's because oil companies limit production. There is an artificial limit on supply, so prices go up. It may not be a conspiracy, but it's still exploiting the fact that people need oil in their daily lives. You can continue to complain about the rising cost of living.. but the only way to change that is to change the way we travel and transport goods. Anyone that uses their brain can see that the cost of oil is rising. The cost of living is rising.. meanwhile, oil companies are reporting record profits. The UAE is engineering palm tree shaped islands with tennis courts a mile high. Saudi Arabian students go to American Colleges free of charge because of oil contracts with the US government. I'm not screaming about a conspiracy. There's nothing I personally can do about a struggling economy either. There is something WE can do though. On a side note: Graffiti is vandalism, but what is advertising? I certainly didn't pay my cable bill to see commercials on TV. I don't pay taxes for public parks so I can see billboards from the canal.. Thu, 15 May 2008 18:26:40 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22411 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22411 thelaughingman I completely agree with the fact that "A revolution against "the man" isn't going to stop the fact of supply and demand."... because there are certain inescapable downsides to the structure of human society, regardless of how it is organized. So fundamental are these faults, that they seem to emanate from the existence of "society" itself, rather than the conscious efforts of a section of people who are in power and who intend to remain in power. Communism is a solution I have often heard voiced from radicals. However, where I come from, I have seen it fail miserably. It is all wonderful for the first generation. But their offspring, a generation no longer driven and motivated by the emotions, needs and situations of the preceding one, cry about the unfairness of the world. Want in man cannot be eliminated no matter what. Communism slowly filters into an oligarchy. Revolution only creates a temporary displacement of power. However, over time the systems of man are slowly and gradually put back in place. Thu, 15 May 2008 17:44:51 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22409 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22409 thelaughingman All this information about spray paint manufacturing firms being owned and controlled by men in positions of immense power does not surprise me at all. It is, however, an ironic stab in the back for those who would fall for things like the ones mentioned above. Thu, 15 May 2008 17:20:24 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22405 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22405 joe.shearer Right. I heard Don Rumsfeld held controlling interest in two different spray paint manufacturers, and Dubya is on the board of directors at Champion. Thu, 15 May 2008 16:55:07 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22401 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22401 johnnyglucose And that's why spray paint is so danged expensive...all those graffiti artists. And the Krylon executives are laughing all the way to their Swiss banks. Thu, 15 May 2008 16:07:27 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22397 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22397 randydaytona Oh my God, do you even know what economics is? Those costs rise because of inflation and supply and demand. For example there is less gas than people want so it's more expensive. Gas prices raise the price of things like food which depend on gas to be shipped. This isn't some conspiracy by a bunch of guys trying to get rich. Yeah, they want to make money - that's why they are in business but they can't control the price 100%. A revolution against "the man" isn't going to stop the fact of supply and demand. Thu, 15 May 2008 15:18:29 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22394 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22394 thelaughingman American, and by extension, a lot of modern democracy to me seems to be the perfect farce. After all, the greatest trick is to convince people of it's absence. It seems like the perfect cover. What can be better than an illusion of freedom for those who mean to enslave? Democracy is the ideal product. The ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy. The democratic politician does not sell the product to the consumer. He sells the consumer to the product. The freedom merchant does not improve and simplify his merchandise. He simplifies and degrades his client. "Choice is an illusion created by those with power for those without." Thu, 15 May 2008 14:34:21 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22391 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22391 kristofer meh, I have rights as a citizen and a consumer. the only way to beat this system of control is to unite. The only way to stop the rising cost of [gas, goods and services, food, transit, etc] is with a united consumer stand. somebody is brave enough to make it public (with graffiti or otherwise) and it's time for the rest of us to strive for change as well. Thu, 15 May 2008 14:20:25 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22389 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22389 Dexter Kristofer you should watch out. I peronally think the government is behind the spray painting. The government may put out subtle messages (via graffitti) to people who hold ideas of revolution. When people respond to the messages, via online message board for example, then the government knows who to watch. It's a trap. Thu, 15 May 2008 14:13:22 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22387 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22387 randydaytona Exploited by capitalism?! Hardly, you won't find a bigger support than me but we're not going to get in to that because we aren't going to agree. I'm just saying it's still vandalism and we have to pay for it when these idiots make a mess. That's the real out of control system: the tax system. We're all supposed to be "equal" until it comes to tax time...makes sense. Thu, 15 May 2008 14:04:24 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22385 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22385 kristofer you don't seem to realize that the only way we beat this system of control is by uniting and spreading the "better way" message. join the revolution or continue being exploited by capitalism and fake democracy. Thu, 15 May 2008 11:49:25 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22373 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22373 randydaytona It's called vandalism, not a revolution. What these hippies don't realize is when they spray paint s--- on walls, it's our tax dollars that pay to clean that up. Thu, 15 May 2008 11:46:10 -0400 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22372 http://www.indy.com/posts/8163#comment_22372