Hoosiers discuss Prop. 8 and their experiences with gay marriage

Amy Bartner

December 03, 2008 by Amy Bartner

+14 votes

The brides wore white

Anna Glowinski and Beth Droste were high school sweethearts who married each other twice this summer — in each woman’s version of a dream wedding. Phil Bailey and Todd Cox also exchanged vows twice, first at their local church, and then, four years later, in Canada. Both couples consider themselves married in the traditional sense, though neither couple’s union is legal in Indiana. With propositions banning same-sex marriages passing in three states on Nov. 4, including California’s highly publicized Prop. 8, we met with two Indy couples to see what life is like in a state that doesn’t recognize their unions.

The two women met and fell in love as teenagers at their Southside Catholic high school.

But Anna Glowinski and Beth Droste, both now 24, were friends before they realized they had feelings for each other.

Being gay wasn’t something either had considered.

“I had a boyfriend at the time,” Beth said, then laughed.

“I never really thought about anything like that,” said Anna, now a residence hall director at the University of Indianapolis. “We kinda came out together. It just happened.”

Anna and Beth dated for a few months during their junior year at Roncalli High School, then broke up. Anna, who hadn’t dated anyone before Beth — and who was still unsure about her sexuality — needed some time.

“I went from being nothing to being gay,” she said. “There were just a lot of questions. It took me a lot longer to say, ’It’s OK, people support me.’ Beth was always OK with it.”

Beth was not only sure about her sexuality, she was sure she wanted to be with Anna. But she understood that Anna needed space.

“It was too much,” said Beth, a student at the Indiana Therapeutic Massage School. “We had come out and been a couple, all at the same time.”

But later that year, in 2003, Beth’s older sister died in a car accident. Anna was instantly by her side.

“She knew what I needed without me saying anything,” Beth said. “We started dating for the last time.”

They were married — twice — this past October.

Wedding No. 1: Oct. 10 at the Rathskeller in Downtown Indianapolis. They wore white wedding gowns, carried coordinating bouquets of Asiatic lilies and said their vows in front of 160 people. A family friend officiated.

“It was really her wedding,” Anna said, smirking in Beth’s direction. “I mean, I was there…”

Wedding No. 2: Oct. 14 in Cape Cod, Mass., a state that has allowed gay marriage since 2005. They were married, barefoot, in rolled-up khakis and sweaters, at sunset, on a windy day on the beach by a justice of the peace. The marriage is recognized as legal only in Massachusetts.

“Really, for us as a couple, it was the best of both worlds,” Anna said. “We actually got to have both our dream weddings within the same week.”

Beth grew up wanting the fairy-tale wedding and the intricate diamond ring to go with it. She’s chatty, confident, and loves to talk about her sexual orientation. Anna, who’s a little more reserved, wanted a small wedding and chose a simple yellow and white gold band.

“We’re as married as we can be,” Beth said.

Dream weddings (and a 10-day honeymoon in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico) aside, the women look forward to a time when they can legally marry in Indiana and carry the same rights as a heterosexual couple — tax breaks, work benefits and the authority to make medical decisions. They wonder if that might come later rather than sooner, after a number of same-sex marriage bans, including California’s highly publicized Proposition 8, passed in three states on Nov. 4.

“I thought California was more liberal than that,” Anna said. “I didn’t think it would get passed. I’m interested to see what will happen.”

They want equal rights and to be recognized as married by the country they live in, but Anna and Beth say the marriage bans are a small hindrance in the gay civil rights movement.

“It’s only getting better from here,” Beth said.

Vowing for change

Men vow to stay in Indiana to work for state recognition

Phil Bailey scrunches his nose as he shoots a glance over at his husband.

“Saying we’re ‘normal gay’ sounds pretty stupid,” he says. “Maybe ‘boring gay?’.”

Phil, 38, and Todd Cox, 41, are sitting in their living room at their home on 73rd Street with their two corgis, William and Harry.

They’re recounting the day they met (at a Downtown club in 1995), went out on their first date. (Todd did the asking out. Phil says he thought it was a group hangout, not a date. Todd shrugs and smiles coyly: “Everybody else was busy.”)

They were engaged in 1998 (again, Todd did the asking), had a holy union at Jesus Metropolitan Community Church in 1999 and then were married, legally, in Canada, in 2003. The holy union is a religious service and “the best you can do,” Todd says. “It’s what they recognize most for anniversaries.”

“We’re married,” said Todd, a pharmacy manager for Wishard Hospital. “It would be nice for it to be legal in Indiana, to have all those rights. But in the eyes of God and my family, we’re married.”

It wasn’t — and still isn’t — easy.

“(Planning the ceremony) took us a little longer, too,” Phil says, “because of …..”

“Bigots,” Todd interrupts.

Finding people to help with the wedding was the hardest task. One florist refused.

“I had someone say on the phone, ‘Well, my husband and I are Christian and we don’t believe in it,’” said Phil, education coordinator for JoAnn Fabrics & Crafts in Castleton. “And I was like, ’We’re Christian, too.’.”

The two men wonder about the future of gay marriage in Indiana, considering that Proposition 8, a ban on same-sex marriage, passed in California on Election Day.

A similar ban was introduced in Indiana last year, but was killed in the House.

“It gives some of the small-minded people in the House and the Senate incentive to push it again,” Phil said.

“By allowing a majority vote on a minority issue, you’re warping what a true democracy is,” Phil said.

Regardless of the ban passed in California and in other states, the election of Barack Obama has given them hope. Obama has said he doesn’t support same-sex marriage, but Todd and Phil think he had to take that position to win the election.

“You shouldn’t be able, in this country, to vote on civil rights,” Todd said. “Would you vote on the rights of a Jewish person? Are we the last group that it’s OK to discriminate against?”

Todd and Phil have discussed moving to a state where their marriage would be recognized, but decided to stay in the state they both grew up in.

“This is our city,” Todd said. “You stand and fight where you are. It has to stop somewhere.”

And it will, they say.

“The civil rights movement as a whole is moving forward,” Todd said. “When I graduated from high school, I couldn’t imagine this.”

It’s not moving quickly, but they both can imagine a time when they’ll be legally married in this country.

When Todd thinks about the possibility, he smiles hopefully.

“I’ll be very old,” he says.

What’s next for Hoosiers?

We spoke with some local community leaders to see what they think the future is for same-sex marriages in Indiana.

Tiffany Dow, board member, Indiana Black Pride

“(Indiana is) not at the forefront, by any means. I believe there will be (legal same-sex marriage) at some point, but I think the only way it’s going to happen in the state is if it’s a federal thing.

“It’s kind of scary to me that with Prop. 8 passing, a right that was already given to people was taken away, at the hands of the voters. Any time you have minorities’ rights dictated by the majority, that’s certainly a civil rights issue.”

Micah Clark, executive director, American Family Association of Indiana

“You’re going to see this issue come up again and again in Indiana. I think you’re going to see that the homosexual activists are going to push for marriage, and Indiana will someday have to defend its laws or allow same-sex marriages.

“We have a very high hurdle for changing the constitution. We’ve come close.

“It would easily pass, but the House leadership does not want that to happen and has blocked it on three or four occasions. If it were allowed, it would pass easily. What the voters would do with it, I don’t know.”

Todd Woodmansee, Indianapolis lawyer

“The passage of Prop. 8 sets us back as a community, as a nation. California is such a bellwether for social progression, and we’re not getting that right now after what happened.

“The problem we run into is that people confuse the legal issue and the religious issue. If they do have the same rights, then I don’t care what you call it.

I think it’s going to be (legal) within the next five to 10 years. The (U.S.) Supreme Court is going to have to address this issue because we have so many states now that either recognize it or explicitly defy it in their constitution.

“Marriage has been redefined for years and years and years. So many things have evolved. Society has to adapt and change, and the fear-mongering that is out there is what disturbs me the most.”

Patrick Mangan, executive director, Citizens for Community Values of Indiana

“The truth is that Hoosier families are not embracing this, and that Hoosier families are not hating anyone either. People who oppose this are lovingly opposing the homosexual agenda. Where we are as a nation, this is a very contentious issue, but those who support traditional marriage care about everyone involved, including those who struggle with same-sex attraction. What we would like to do as a society is to help those to overcome it, and to avoid those harms.”

Jeff Miner, senior pastor of Jesus Metropolitan Community Church, a gay/lesbian friendly congregation

“Indiana is the only state in the nation that has successfully defeated an attempt to amend its constitution to discriminate (against) gay people. That’s something we can be proud of. It seems obvious that the religious right will continue in its efforts. ….. Our concern is that we not go backwards and use the constitution as a club. It’s always sad when any state uses its constitution to discriminate.

“Just like some churches took the lead in the black civil rights movement, I think that some churches have a right to get involved and insist that government treat people equally.”

Where Indiana stands

Indiana law defines marriage as being only between a man and a woman.

There’s no amendment in the state’s constitution banning same-sex marriage. A proposal to amend the constitution has been pushed in years past, as opponents of gay marriage fear Indiana’s judges could strike down the law. Such a ban failed to pass out of the General Assembly in 2007 and again this year, which means the lengthy process to amend the state constitution would have to start from scratch in 2009. That’s unlikely to happen.

Democratic House Speaker B. Patrick Bauer has not shown a willingness to allow a floor vote. A constitutional amendment requires passage by two separately elected legislatures, followed by the approval of voters in a general election.

If a constitutional amendment were to pass in 2009 or 2010, it would have to be approved by the General Assembly again in 2011 or 2012 before voters would have the chance to vote on the measure in the 2012 general election.

— The Indianapolis Star

Across the nation

Thirty states have passed constitutional bans on same-sex marriage, including the most recent ones voted in on Nov. 4: California, Arizona and Florida.

California, which has been viewed as a flagship for gay civil rights issues, received a lot of publicity when its ban, Proposition 8, was passed. The move could mean Indiana, as well as other states, might follow its lead or continue to move toward wider rights for gays and lesbians.

Forum: Politics

Tags: 

prop 8, gay marriage, Proposition 8, marriage, weddings, rights, Equal Rights, same-sex marriage, California

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87 comments

martymeyer
martymeyer, December 8, 2008
0 votes

I have never understood the outward hatred hurled at those same gender lovers who want to get married. Actually, a marriage license is a form of taxation — a way to raise money for a state. (I have always felt that divorce should carry the exact same price tag.)

I honestly think the young folks coming forward now to take control of governments will reform even Indiana. This may just be one of these issues that “attrition through age” will ultimately win the battle. I have many gay friends. They are no threat to anyone — why is all this such a nasty argument that somehow got dragged through the muck by the “Bible Bangers” who want to take on the mantels of “the morality police” based on religion.

I say, “Let all those who love each other, who care for each other, who want to raise children in a loving home and can provide for them be allowed to enjoy being married and all its tenets.” What goes on regarding this discussion is the offshoot of organized religion, hoping that the flock will lock-step the message from the pulpit and not think for themselves and the tenets of Christianity.

May all those who love and love each other be blessed.

DavidM

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DavidM
DavidM, December 8, 2008
-3 votes

If you are a true Catholic woman then you will hear the Pope. He is against gay marriage dear.

joe.shearer
joe.shearer, December 8, 2008
+1 vote

I wouldn’t be against altering the legal definition of marriage to become “civil union,” (since gay marriage opponents say it’s the same thing anyway, right?), but I think it would be a PR nightmare that would probably be just as bad as, if not worse than, legalizing gay marriage, because then it would become “they’re trying to take our right of marriage away,” as inaccurate as that would be.

Funny too that I’ve seen several postings from David M, CREastes and the like since my last postings, but I have not heard any rebuttal of what I’ve said. Does anyone have a legitimate counter to what I have to say? Anyone?

Christiebelle
Christiebelle, December 8, 2008
0 votes

What? Righters having an unemotional, logic based debate? not bloody likely my friend :). BTW the bible should never be used as a reference unless you are writing a paper on… the bible.

randydaytona
randydaytona, December 9, 2008
0 votes

Never got this whole gay thing.

AbominaNoel
AbominaNoel, December 9, 2008
0 votes

Joe, I understand what you’re saying. Equal rights are equal rights, period. But immoral behavior tips the scales. A large number of Americans believe homosexual activity is immoral and thus should not be considered grounds for establishing rights that are held by people who do not commit those activities. The arguments you and most of the other people in this thread are using are the same that are being used by polygamists. The same that are used by NAMBLA. The same that are used by every fringe group that wants to justify to the rest of the world that they’re people just like everybody else, well except they do things we think are wrong.

joe.shearer
joe.shearer, December 9, 2008
+1 vote

But polygamy and molesting children is illegal. Being gay and in love with someone isn’t illegal. It’s fine if you think it’s wrong, and I respect that (though I disagree), and you’re certainly entitled to that opinion. But there is still no reason to restrict who can be married on the grounds that you don’t agree with it.

And it’s not like anyone is asking anyone to make any concessions (i.e. gay people aren’t trying to get a law passed saying “gay people are allowed to be married”). People who are against gay marriage are going out of their way to try to make it illegal by establishing specific laws that would exclude it (the “one man, one woman” thing). They’re not saying “live and let live,” they’re saying “you freaks can’t do this, because we know what you’re doing behind those closed doors, and we don’t like it.” Allowing them to be married isn’t condoning their sexual behavior. It’s simply allowing them to live their lives as they please (so long as they’re obeying the law), and stepping out of their way.

It restricts in some way everyone’s lives, gay or straight, because it establishes a precedent that the government can prevent two willing, consenting adults from marrying for a reason they deem appropriate, and giving a government power like that is a dangerous place to go.

AbominaNoel
AbominaNoel, December 9, 2008
-1 votes

I don’t believe that “giving government power like that” is the problem. The problem is allowing a minority of the public to dictate to our “government of the people” that we have to condone and reward immoral behavior.

enuma
enuma, December 9, 2008
0 votes

But you aren’t being forced to condone it. No one is saying, “Your church has to officiate gay marriages.” or “You have to congratulate all gay couples.” You aren’t even being asked to ignore it. You can personally preach against homosexuality all you want. You’re just being asked to keep your personal beliefs out of secular law. The problem isn’t allow the minority ti dictate what we condone. The problem is the majority is being allowed away the civil rights of the minority. We are not a direct democracy, we are a constitutional republic. Civil rights should never be up for a majority vote.

AbominaNoel
AbominaNoel, December 9, 2008
-1 votes

You’re right that civil rights shouldn’t be up for a majority vote. But the majority establishes a society’s mores, whether they are written into law or not. As far as keeping my personal beliefs out of secular law, what do you think secular law is made out of? I personally believe that murder is immoral. Same thing with rape. Same thing with theft, assault, drug use, drunk driving, child abuse, child molestation, etc… Where shall I draw the line for you and say “Oh well, since it’s YOU that wants to do things I think are wrong, I guess it’s ok”?

enuma
enuma, December 9, 2008
+2 votes

But rape, assault, child abuse… all those things involve UNWILLING participants. With gay marriage, we are talking about denying consenting adults access to what is essentially a private contract. How can you not see the difference?

AbominaNoel
AbominaNoel, December 9, 2008
-1 votes

You left out my drug use and drunk driving examples. You can throw prostitution in there too. All of those are clear examples of personal conduct which I think are detrimental to society. This all boils down to each and every individual’s perception of right and wrong. There’s a very thin line of middle ground here and America is stumbling about trying to find a way to balance upon it. Until that happens there are going to be times when it loses it’s balance and falls over onto one side or the other. When that happens, it’s going to leave a bruise.

enuma
enuma, December 9, 2008
+2 votes

I left drug use out on purpose as I think we should decriminalize it. It’s a health problem, not a crime. Drunk driving presents an immediate threat to the safety of others, which is why it should remain illegal. It does not boil down to an individual’s perception of right and wrong. That’s a terrible way to make laws. It should boil down to objective harm. Gay marriage does not cause straight people objective harm, ergo there’s no (reasonable) grounds to ban it.

realrepublican
realrepublican, December 9, 2008
0 votes

Seems funny republicans are still on this issue. With Mark Foley, Larry Craig, and Ted Haggard crashing out of the closet, one would think republicans would avoid this issue. Granted, none of them wanted to get married, just wanted gay sex. Still, republicans look like flaming hypicrites, not to mention hateful and homophobic. I think they use it as a diversion-if the republicans are pointing fingers at gays, maybe no one will ask the republicans why property tax bill haven’t been sent out on time since the repbulicans took power.

Drinky_McGee
Drinky_McGee, December 9, 2008
+1 vote

I just want to add that the government of the United States was established on the concept of protecting minority rights from the encroachment of the majority. True, the minority they had in mind was rich, white guys with funny wigs, but the concept remains. The only entity that can protect the rights of the minority from the witless majority is the government. Let’s face it, “majority rule” is the default position, the easy way out. The trick is putting the brakes on the majority when they’re acting like idiots.

MrsSchuette
MrsSchuette, December 9, 2008
0 votes

I know that is one thing the Pope needs to change and I will give you that just like you do! also you might get the hint that noone really wants to hear what your closed mind has to say since all of your postings are blocked.

joe.shearer
joe.shearer, December 9, 2008
+2 votes

Laws are established to protect the citizenry, not merely reflect a society’s morals. The general guidelines as to whether a law needs to be established on an issue is whether people are harmed or denied rights as a result of the lack of a law.

Pedophilia, murder, drunk driving, etc. represent either an immediate danger (as enuma said) or the transmission of the act actually harms someone. Prostitution is another issue to me, but not terribly relevant to what I’m wanting to say, so I’ll put it to the side for now (we can discuss it in another forum if you’d like, though).

But my argument remains that when two willing participants want to get married, the government’s primary responsibility is to collect the fee, print the license and let them go about their business. The government shouldn’t be in the business of determining who can or cannot get married. If they think they should be, they’ve got some work to do because there are countless millions of “legal” marriages that are leagues more immoral than the marriage would be if, say, my former neighbors decided they wanted to get married.

AbominaNoel
AbominaNoel, December 9, 2008
0 votes

You are correct in saying that laws are established to protect the citizenry but to expand upon that they also protect society as a whole. Opponents of gay marriage see it as an assault upon that society. It represents change from they way things used to be and as many of us believe it still should be. Marriage and family are the building blocks of society, even more fundamental than government. When the composition of that institution is shaken, it is going to send tremors through the whole cultural infrastructure. That is what scares people.

Ben Neff
Ben Neff, December 9, 2008
+1 vote

I think it’s worth noting that same-sex unions are legal in England, Canada, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Finland, The Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, France, Luxembourg, Argentina, New Zealand, South Africa and Germany. I’m pretty sure that these countries didn’t go toppling into immoral, corrupt societies after the decisions were made there.

joe.shearer
joe.shearer, December 9, 2008
+2 votes

We can agree on that. Those people’s fears are infringing on the rights of other people. That’s still what cannot be answered is how these people, who are not criminals, and on the face of it are not doing anything illegal, and again, what you’re saying is basically “they’re scared because they don’t like what those people are doing, so they think they need to be kept down.”

Even if gay marriage opponents are doing the old “hate the sin, not the sinner” routine, the fact remains they’re infringing on the rights of a certain group of people because they disagree with what they’re doing.

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