Hoosiers discuss Prop. 8 and their experiences with gay marriage

Amy Bartner

December 03, 2008 by Amy Bartner

+14 votes

The brides wore white

Anna Glowinski and Beth Droste were high school sweethearts who married each other twice this summer — in each woman’s version of a dream wedding. Phil Bailey and Todd Cox also exchanged vows twice, first at their local church, and then, four years later, in Canada. Both couples consider themselves married in the traditional sense, though neither couple’s union is legal in Indiana. With propositions banning same-sex marriages passing in three states on Nov. 4, including California’s highly publicized Prop. 8, we met with two Indy couples to see what life is like in a state that doesn’t recognize their unions.

The two women met and fell in love as teenagers at their Southside Catholic high school.

But Anna Glowinski and Beth Droste, both now 24, were friends before they realized they had feelings for each other.

Being gay wasn’t something either had considered.

“I had a boyfriend at the time,” Beth said, then laughed.

“I never really thought about anything like that,” said Anna, now a residence hall director at the University of Indianapolis. “We kinda came out together. It just happened.”

Anna and Beth dated for a few months during their junior year at Roncalli High School, then broke up. Anna, who hadn’t dated anyone before Beth — and who was still unsure about her sexuality — needed some time.

“I went from being nothing to being gay,” she said. “There were just a lot of questions. It took me a lot longer to say, ’It’s OK, people support me.’ Beth was always OK with it.”

Beth was not only sure about her sexuality, she was sure she wanted to be with Anna. But she understood that Anna needed space.

“It was too much,” said Beth, a student at the Indiana Therapeutic Massage School. “We had come out and been a couple, all at the same time.”

But later that year, in 2003, Beth’s older sister died in a car accident. Anna was instantly by her side.

“She knew what I needed without me saying anything,” Beth said. “We started dating for the last time.”

They were married — twice — this past October.

Wedding No. 1: Oct. 10 at the Rathskeller in Downtown Indianapolis. They wore white wedding gowns, carried coordinating bouquets of Asiatic lilies and said their vows in front of 160 people. A family friend officiated.

“It was really her wedding,” Anna said, smirking in Beth’s direction. “I mean, I was there…”

Wedding No. 2: Oct. 14 in Cape Cod, Mass., a state that has allowed gay marriage since 2005. They were married, barefoot, in rolled-up khakis and sweaters, at sunset, on a windy day on the beach by a justice of the peace. The marriage is recognized as legal only in Massachusetts.

“Really, for us as a couple, it was the best of both worlds,” Anna said. “We actually got to have both our dream weddings within the same week.”

Beth grew up wanting the fairy-tale wedding and the intricate diamond ring to go with it. She’s chatty, confident, and loves to talk about her sexual orientation. Anna, who’s a little more reserved, wanted a small wedding and chose a simple yellow and white gold band.

“We’re as married as we can be,” Beth said.

Dream weddings (and a 10-day honeymoon in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico) aside, the women look forward to a time when they can legally marry in Indiana and carry the same rights as a heterosexual couple — tax breaks, work benefits and the authority to make medical decisions. They wonder if that might come later rather than sooner, after a number of same-sex marriage bans, including California’s highly publicized Proposition 8, passed in three states on Nov. 4.

“I thought California was more liberal than that,” Anna said. “I didn’t think it would get passed. I’m interested to see what will happen.”

They want equal rights and to be recognized as married by the country they live in, but Anna and Beth say the marriage bans are a small hindrance in the gay civil rights movement.

“It’s only getting better from here,” Beth said.

Vowing for change

Men vow to stay in Indiana to work for state recognition

Phil Bailey scrunches his nose as he shoots a glance over at his husband.

“Saying we’re ‘normal gay’ sounds pretty stupid,” he says. “Maybe ‘boring gay?’.”

Phil, 38, and Todd Cox, 41, are sitting in their living room at their home on 73rd Street with their two corgis, William and Harry.

They’re recounting the day they met (at a Downtown club in 1995), went out on their first date. (Todd did the asking out. Phil says he thought it was a group hangout, not a date. Todd shrugs and smiles coyly: “Everybody else was busy.”)

They were engaged in 1998 (again, Todd did the asking), had a holy union at Jesus Metropolitan Community Church in 1999 and then were married, legally, in Canada, in 2003. The holy union is a religious service and “the best you can do,” Todd says. “It’s what they recognize most for anniversaries.”

“We’re married,” said Todd, a pharmacy manager for Wishard Hospital. “It would be nice for it to be legal in Indiana, to have all those rights. But in the eyes of God and my family, we’re married.”

It wasn’t — and still isn’t — easy.

“(Planning the ceremony) took us a little longer, too,” Phil says, “because of …..”

“Bigots,” Todd interrupts.

Finding people to help with the wedding was the hardest task. One florist refused.

“I had someone say on the phone, ‘Well, my husband and I are Christian and we don’t believe in it,’” said Phil, education coordinator for JoAnn Fabrics & Crafts in Castleton. “And I was like, ’We’re Christian, too.’.”

The two men wonder about the future of gay marriage in Indiana, considering that Proposition 8, a ban on same-sex marriage, passed in California on Election Day.

A similar ban was introduced in Indiana last year, but was killed in the House.

“It gives some of the small-minded people in the House and the Senate incentive to push it again,” Phil said.

“By allowing a majority vote on a minority issue, you’re warping what a true democracy is,” Phil said.

Regardless of the ban passed in California and in other states, the election of Barack Obama has given them hope. Obama has said he doesn’t support same-sex marriage, but Todd and Phil think he had to take that position to win the election.

“You shouldn’t be able, in this country, to vote on civil rights,” Todd said. “Would you vote on the rights of a Jewish person? Are we the last group that it’s OK to discriminate against?”

Todd and Phil have discussed moving to a state where their marriage would be recognized, but decided to stay in the state they both grew up in.

“This is our city,” Todd said. “You stand and fight where you are. It has to stop somewhere.”

And it will, they say.

“The civil rights movement as a whole is moving forward,” Todd said. “When I graduated from high school, I couldn’t imagine this.”

It’s not moving quickly, but they both can imagine a time when they’ll be legally married in this country.

When Todd thinks about the possibility, he smiles hopefully.

“I’ll be very old,” he says.

What’s next for Hoosiers?

We spoke with some local community leaders to see what they think the future is for same-sex marriages in Indiana.

Tiffany Dow, board member, Indiana Black Pride

“(Indiana is) not at the forefront, by any means. I believe there will be (legal same-sex marriage) at some point, but I think the only way it’s going to happen in the state is if it’s a federal thing.

“It’s kind of scary to me that with Prop. 8 passing, a right that was already given to people was taken away, at the hands of the voters. Any time you have minorities’ rights dictated by the majority, that’s certainly a civil rights issue.”

Micah Clark, executive director, American Family Association of Indiana

“You’re going to see this issue come up again and again in Indiana. I think you’re going to see that the homosexual activists are going to push for marriage, and Indiana will someday have to defend its laws or allow same-sex marriages.

“We have a very high hurdle for changing the constitution. We’ve come close.

“It would easily pass, but the House leadership does not want that to happen and has blocked it on three or four occasions. If it were allowed, it would pass easily. What the voters would do with it, I don’t know.”

Todd Woodmansee, Indianapolis lawyer

“The passage of Prop. 8 sets us back as a community, as a nation. California is such a bellwether for social progression, and we’re not getting that right now after what happened.

“The problem we run into is that people confuse the legal issue and the religious issue. If they do have the same rights, then I don’t care what you call it.

I think it’s going to be (legal) within the next five to 10 years. The (U.S.) Supreme Court is going to have to address this issue because we have so many states now that either recognize it or explicitly defy it in their constitution.

“Marriage has been redefined for years and years and years. So many things have evolved. Society has to adapt and change, and the fear-mongering that is out there is what disturbs me the most.”

Patrick Mangan, executive director, Citizens for Community Values of Indiana

“The truth is that Hoosier families are not embracing this, and that Hoosier families are not hating anyone either. People who oppose this are lovingly opposing the homosexual agenda. Where we are as a nation, this is a very contentious issue, but those who support traditional marriage care about everyone involved, including those who struggle with same-sex attraction. What we would like to do as a society is to help those to overcome it, and to avoid those harms.”

Jeff Miner, senior pastor of Jesus Metropolitan Community Church, a gay/lesbian friendly congregation

“Indiana is the only state in the nation that has successfully defeated an attempt to amend its constitution to discriminate (against) gay people. That’s something we can be proud of. It seems obvious that the religious right will continue in its efforts. ….. Our concern is that we not go backwards and use the constitution as a club. It’s always sad when any state uses its constitution to discriminate.

“Just like some churches took the lead in the black civil rights movement, I think that some churches have a right to get involved and insist that government treat people equally.”

Where Indiana stands

Indiana law defines marriage as being only between a man and a woman.

There’s no amendment in the state’s constitution banning same-sex marriage. A proposal to amend the constitution has been pushed in years past, as opponents of gay marriage fear Indiana’s judges could strike down the law. Such a ban failed to pass out of the General Assembly in 2007 and again this year, which means the lengthy process to amend the state constitution would have to start from scratch in 2009. That’s unlikely to happen.

Democratic House Speaker B. Patrick Bauer has not shown a willingness to allow a floor vote. A constitutional amendment requires passage by two separately elected legislatures, followed by the approval of voters in a general election.

If a constitutional amendment were to pass in 2009 or 2010, it would have to be approved by the General Assembly again in 2011 or 2012 before voters would have the chance to vote on the measure in the 2012 general election.

— The Indianapolis Star

Across the nation

Thirty states have passed constitutional bans on same-sex marriage, including the most recent ones voted in on Nov. 4: California, Arizona and Florida.

California, which has been viewed as a flagship for gay civil rights issues, received a lot of publicity when its ban, Proposition 8, was passed. The move could mean Indiana, as well as other states, might follow its lead or continue to move toward wider rights for gays and lesbians.

Forum: Politics

Tags: 

prop 8, gay marriage, Proposition 8, marriage, weddings, rights, Equal Rights, same-sex marriage, California

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87 comments

DavidM
DavidM, December 6, 2008
-2 votes

Yes Judge not lest yea be judged. Stand against sin but lover the sinner. That in turn you can not support the sin by legalizing it.

trapped
trapped, December 6, 2008
+3 votes

I have the utmost admiration for not only Anna and Beth, but for their families. To accept and embrace love, no matter the origin, is a beautiful gift from God. I have very loving yet non supportive parents who could never understand or share in my lifestyle and it has crippled my soul. Crippled it so much that I have returned to the heterosexual lifestyle, living a lie. All in the name of “love.” It’s the saddest definition of love I can imagine and separates me from the truth – unconditional love. So although this is my path in life, I applaud the supportiveness of Anna and Beth’s families – you both are very blessed.

mps456
mps456, December 6, 2008
+2 votes

So DavidM, I expect you to start campaigning and letter writing to have no-fault divorce abolished. One thing Jesus did speak out about was divorce. I doubt that he would agree with how easy it is to obtain one. So while you are hating THAT sin, see how much traction you get with abolishing divorce. After that I expect to see you put as much energy into sponsoring the abolishment of the NFL, college football and peewee football leagues. We cannot have our children out there violating those Leviticus rules about touching the skin of a pig right? Compounding the problem is that the NFL plays pretty much exclusively on Sundays. Also a no-no. Can’t have anything taking away from the sabbath day (since we already are prohibited from buying alcohol on Sundays for the same reason). Good luck getting the legislature and the American public on board for that.

I am sure that there are plenty of other example of sins that Jesus were he to appear today would be none too pleased with that we HAVE legalized. So nice of you to pick and choose your battles. If the right-wing wants to save marriage then by all means and common sense, get rid of no-fault divorce. Oh yeah I forgot, the right-wing commits that sin LEGALLY everyday. My bad.

iamthebride
iamthebride, December 7, 2008
+3 votes

I have been so touched by all the comments that have been left. I was truly honored to be a part of this article and to be a starting place for this conversation. Although it may seem so now, it has not always been an easy journey for Beth and I. I appreciate all the struggles that have been discussed here. “trapped” I pray that one day you are given the gift of completeness in your life, because I truly believe that it is the greatest gift in the world!

DavidM

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DavidM
DavidM, December 7, 2008
-4 votes

I am against our no fault divorce here. Go buy your alcohol on Sat. so you can drink it on Sunday if you have to have it so badly.

DavidM

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DavidM
DavidM, December 7, 2008
-4 votes

I am against our no fault divorce here. Go buy your alcohol on Sat. so you can drink it on Sunday if you have to have it so badly.

DavidM

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DavidM
DavidM, December 7, 2008
-4 votes

I am against our no fault divorce here. Go buy your alcohol on Sat. so you can drink it on Sunday if you have to have it so badly.

papasmurf
papasmurf, December 7, 2008
0 votes

DavidM
You would do well to remember your statement in a prior post: “In the end, what if you are wrong in the eyes of God?”

NancyS
NancyS, December 7, 2008
0 votes

I have two adult children both with life partners, one with rights one without. As a parent in America I want equal rights for my children. As for those who oppose those rights because of their religious beliefs, I respect those beliefs, but in America there is a separation of church and state. In America you have the right to worship and believe as you please and I will stand up for that right. Our forefathers died for your rights and they also died for my children’s rights.For you to oppose the equal rights for my child is wrong. It is time to make sure this discrimination against same sex couples ends. We pledge to our flag “with liberty and justice for ALL,” Has your pledge been a lie? Who are you to judge? I want equal rights for my children and their partners in life and I firmly believe it will go to the supreme court and those rights will be given, the same as the rights given in the 1960’s.

bridgetid
bridgetid, December 7, 2008
0 votes

I have always said that if you support love, you should support all kinds of love. It’s that simple.

joe.shearer
joe.shearer, December 7, 2008
+2 votes

I’m gonna vote to abolish the color magenta. After all, in “Dianetics,” L. Ron Hubbard said magenta is the color of the unfaithful.

Okay, he didn’t really say that. But for the 8,000th time, let’s go ahead and again establish that the Christian Bible is not the Constitution, and it cannot and shall not be used as a tool to determine the law of our country as specifically stated by those same founding fathers who drafted our constitution.

If you want to live your life strictly by the adherence to (your interpretaton of) the bible as the law of your personal house, by all means, knock yourself out. I’m happy for you. I WANT you to do it. But not everyone recognizes your particular brand of religiosity, and not everyone ha the same beliefs you do. That’s why we live in America, and why we came here in the first place, to escape the oppressive thumb of the evil religious persecution we were under (and yes, unfair taxation was part of it, too).

But when we start doing the very things we claim to hate, we’re becoming evil ourselves.

mps456
mps456, December 7, 2008
0 votes

To Anna and Beth,
Congratulations on finding each other and a lifetime together. The pictures are beautiful and the two of you look very happy. Sorry about my earlier post but people that are as narrow-minded as DavidM seem to be just set me off. If someone doesn’t believe in gay marriage then don’t marry some who is gay or of the same sex as you and all will stay fine in your world.

Remember on judgement day (if there is such a thing), you will only be judged for what you do. God isn’t going to ask you about why you let the gay folks down the street get married.

JulieYoung
JulieYoung, December 7, 2008
-1 votes

A friend of mine had to go to Canada to get married and her job doesn’t exactly recognize it but at least they have decent benefits that cover her wife which is good. I am seriously hoping that the politicos find a way to get throuhg this to the satisfaction of everyone.

VivaZoya
VivaZoya, December 7, 2008
0 votes

This was very brave, thank you all for writing, publishing and participating in this article.

CREastes1
CREastes1, December 8, 2008
-2 votes

You’re more than welcome “Sweetie”. If I may stay-tuned for the next 3-pages maybe you can convert me into believing Lust is better than Love &/or maybe just combine the two and have a bigger party. Can you practice fornication and sodomy at the same party meeting or are they separated into separate sessions-? This education may just prove more fun than I’d ever imagined. Can I hook up privately or do I have to go thru e-Harmony-? By all means enlighten me further on all of these possibilities.

joe.shearer
joe.shearer, December 8, 2008
+3 votes

Isn’t fornication and sodomy pretty much the same thing? Or at least, isn’t sodomy always fornication? Interesting question, but either way it has nothing to do with what we’re talking about here.

CREastes, I’m curious: are you suggesting that a man can’t love a man? There are several men who I’d say I love and I’m not gay.

Our discussion is about gay marriage, so I’m assuming your comments indicate that gay people cannot (or do not) love, only lust, and that they want to marry out of a sheer sense of lust. I seriously doubt that’s the case, having met and spent time with several gay people in the past 10 years or so. I certainly did not marry my wife out of lust…I married her because I love her and wanted to spend my life with her (which is the usual accepted reason for marrying). If anything gay people who want to marry are trying to “do right” by God.

This, to me, is the ultimate point of gay marriage, something no one can argue against, not with any sort of silly “civil union” speak or “sanctity of marriage” garbage: our country is founded on the notion of individual peace and prosperity, and the pursuit of happiness, as the old cliche goes. You cannot deny someone their rights simply because you disagree with what they plan to do. That’s not how the law works (at least, that’s not how the law works as conceived by our founding fathers). You don’t have to like it. You can hate it if you want, and you can stand on the street corners holding a sign that says “Gay Marriage is wrong, and people who are gay are going to hell” if you want. But you cannot deny someone a basic right because you don’t like it, and that’s exactly what opponents of gay marriage are trying to do and letting happen.

That’s the country we live in, that’s the country our founders intended America being, and, all sarcastic remarks and silly anti-logic aside, that’s the direction our country will be and should be headed.

CREastes1
CREastes1, December 8, 2008
-1 votes

DavidM:

It’s obvious that explaining things for the way it was written and intended is fruitless. Moreover one should urinate against the wind in trying. These types of people will not have to answer to mortal man for their actions. So be it with His Blessing (that not being of mortal man).
I’m so excited I think I’m going to have to sit on both hands to keep from clapping-! It sounds like a genuine trade-off in finally having found a cure for constipation vs. the compulsive need to go vomit. Don’t worry about you’re thumbs signal: I’m out-of-here.

enuma
enuma, December 8, 2008
+3 votes

I’m with Christiebelle and Filmore. We need to ditch the marriage license in favor of a civil union for all consenting adults, regardless of gender or orientation. Get the contractual aspects covered in a civil union from the courthouse. Get your holy matrimony from God or your church.

A church can put all the insane restrictions on marriage it wants, but those restrictions should only apply to church members. They should not be enforced in secular law. As far as the government is concerned, a marriage is a legal arrangement between consenting adults. It has no business limiting access to that contract just because the entrants have matching plumbing. The Catholic Church doesn’t recognize marriage between divorcees, and it doesn’t need divorced outlawed to do it. Why can’t other churches do the same for gay marriage?

PS: The most common form of marriage in the Bible is polygamous, and one where the women do not have equal legal standing to their husbands. I sure don’t want to restore traditional marriage. I rather like that we don’t practice traditional marriage in America. If we did, my husband would own me and he’d have the right to beat me for disobedience. Change can be a very good thing. When it comes to the definition of marriage, change is a GREAT thing.

MrsSchuette
MrsSchuette, December 8, 2008
0 votes

I just want to leave a short comment. I am very proud of our homosexuals. They have come along way of coming out and holding there heads up high. I just wanted to say as straight Catholic women keep your heads up. We will get this law fixed it is only right. I also pray that my two children if grow up to be homosexuals that they will not have to deal with what you guys are now. You keep your heads up you are paving the way for our children to marry and love whoever there heart desires. I will pray for all of us (we need it) with the close minded people in the world. GOD BLESS ALL OF THE UNIONS OF MARRIAGE!!!!

MrsSchuette
MrsSchuette, December 8, 2008
0 votes

Like my last posting I said I am a straight Catholic woman. But you are so wrong about the Bible who really knows if “ours” is correct. It has been written and rewritten so many times and in so many different languages it could be completely different than what our Lord what’s us to follow. Let me tell you what I tell my kids, do what is right for you, be nice to people and they will be nice to you. If you act this way about people you don’t even know nor have anything do with personally then you are in a wake up call when the good lord calls on you and wants to know if you are good to people or have you discriminated against them. God Bless and hopefully he will bless you with an open mind.

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