Hoosiers discuss Prop. 8 and their experiences with gay marriage
The brides wore white
Anna Glowinski and Beth Droste were high school sweethearts who married each other twice this summer — in each woman’s version of a dream wedding. Phil Bailey and Todd Cox also exchanged vows twice, first at their local church, and then, four years later, in Canada. Both couples consider themselves married in the traditional sense, though neither couple’s union is legal in Indiana. With propositions banning same-sex marriages passing in three states on Nov. 4, including California’s highly publicized Prop. 8, we met with two Indy couples to see what life is like in a state that doesn’t recognize their unions.
The two women met and fell in love as teenagers at their Southside Catholic high school.
But Anna Glowinski and Beth Droste, both now 24, were friends before they realized they had feelings for each other.
Being gay wasn’t something either had considered.
“I had a boyfriend at the time,” Beth said, then laughed.
“I never really thought about anything like that,” said Anna, now a residence hall director at the University of Indianapolis. “We kinda came out together. It just happened.”
Anna and Beth dated for a few months during their junior year at Roncalli High School, then broke up. Anna, who hadn’t dated anyone before Beth — and who was still unsure about her sexuality — needed some time.
“I went from being nothing to being gay,” she said. “There were just a lot of questions. It took me a lot longer to say, ’It’s OK, people support me.’ Beth was always OK with it.”
Beth was not only sure about her sexuality, she was sure she wanted to be with Anna. But she understood that Anna needed space.
“It was too much,” said Beth, a student at the Indiana Therapeutic Massage School. “We had come out and been a couple, all at the same time.”
But later that year, in 2003, Beth’s older sister died in a car accident. Anna was instantly by her side.
“She knew what I needed without me saying anything,” Beth said. “We started dating for the last time.”
They were married — twice — this past October.
Wedding No. 1: Oct. 10 at the Rathskeller in Downtown Indianapolis. They wore white wedding gowns, carried coordinating bouquets of Asiatic lilies and said their vows in front of 160 people. A family friend officiated.
“It was really her wedding,” Anna said, smirking in Beth’s direction. “I mean, I was there…”
Wedding No. 2: Oct. 14 in Cape Cod, Mass., a state that has allowed gay marriage since 2005. They were married, barefoot, in rolled-up khakis and sweaters, at sunset, on a windy day on the beach by a justice of the peace. The marriage is recognized as legal only in Massachusetts.
“Really, for us as a couple, it was the best of both worlds,” Anna said. “We actually got to have both our dream weddings within the same week.”
Beth grew up wanting the fairy-tale wedding and the intricate diamond ring to go with it. She’s chatty, confident, and loves to talk about her sexual orientation. Anna, who’s a little more reserved, wanted a small wedding and chose a simple yellow and white gold band.
“We’re as married as we can be,” Beth said.
Dream weddings (and a 10-day honeymoon in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico) aside, the women look forward to a time when they can legally marry in Indiana and carry the same rights as a heterosexual couple — tax breaks, work benefits and the authority to make medical decisions. They wonder if that might come later rather than sooner, after a number of same-sex marriage bans, including California’s highly publicized Proposition 8, passed in three states on Nov. 4.
“I thought California was more liberal than that,” Anna said. “I didn’t think it would get passed. I’m interested to see what will happen.”
They want equal rights and to be recognized as married by the country they live in, but Anna and Beth say the marriage bans are a small hindrance in the gay civil rights movement.
“It’s only getting better from here,” Beth said.
Vowing for change
Men vow to stay in Indiana to work for state recognition
Phil Bailey scrunches his nose as he shoots a glance over at his husband.
“Saying we’re ‘normal gay’ sounds pretty stupid,” he says. “Maybe ‘boring gay?’.”
Phil, 38, and Todd Cox, 41, are sitting in their living room at their home on 73rd Street with their two corgis, William and Harry.
They’re recounting the day they met (at a Downtown club in 1995), went out on their first date. (Todd did the asking out. Phil says he thought it was a group hangout, not a date. Todd shrugs and smiles coyly: “Everybody else was busy.”)
They were engaged in 1998 (again, Todd did the asking), had a holy union at Jesus Metropolitan Community Church in 1999 and then were married, legally, in Canada, in 2003. The holy union is a religious service and “the best you can do,” Todd says. “It’s what they recognize most for anniversaries.”
“We’re married,” said Todd, a pharmacy manager for Wishard Hospital. “It would be nice for it to be legal in Indiana, to have all those rights. But in the eyes of God and my family, we’re married.”
It wasn’t — and still isn’t — easy.
“(Planning the ceremony) took us a little longer, too,” Phil says, “because of …..”
“Bigots,” Todd interrupts.
Finding people to help with the wedding was the hardest task. One florist refused.
“I had someone say on the phone, ‘Well, my husband and I are Christian and we don’t believe in it,’” said Phil, education coordinator for JoAnn Fabrics & Crafts in Castleton. “And I was like, ’We’re Christian, too.’.”
The two men wonder about the future of gay marriage in Indiana, considering that Proposition 8, a ban on same-sex marriage, passed in California on Election Day.
A similar ban was introduced in Indiana last year, but was killed in the House.
“It gives some of the small-minded people in the House and the Senate incentive to push it again,” Phil said.
“By allowing a majority vote on a minority issue, you’re warping what a true democracy is,” Phil said.
Regardless of the ban passed in California and in other states, the election of Barack Obama has given them hope. Obama has said he doesn’t support same-sex marriage, but Todd and Phil think he had to take that position to win the election.
“You shouldn’t be able, in this country, to vote on civil rights,” Todd said. “Would you vote on the rights of a Jewish person? Are we the last group that it’s OK to discriminate against?”
Todd and Phil have discussed moving to a state where their marriage would be recognized, but decided to stay in the state they both grew up in.
“This is our city,” Todd said. “You stand and fight where you are. It has to stop somewhere.”
And it will, they say.
“The civil rights movement as a whole is moving forward,” Todd said. “When I graduated from high school, I couldn’t imagine this.”
It’s not moving quickly, but they both can imagine a time when they’ll be legally married in this country.
When Todd thinks about the possibility, he smiles hopefully.
“I’ll be very old,” he says.
What’s next for Hoosiers?
We spoke with some local community leaders to see what they think the future is for same-sex marriages in Indiana.
Tiffany Dow, board member, Indiana Black Pride
“(Indiana is) not at the forefront, by any means. I believe there will be (legal same-sex marriage) at some point, but I think the only way it’s going to happen in the state is if it’s a federal thing.
“It’s kind of scary to me that with Prop. 8 passing, a right that was already given to people was taken away, at the hands of the voters. Any time you have minorities’ rights dictated by the majority, that’s certainly a civil rights issue.”
Micah Clark, executive director, American Family Association of Indiana
“You’re going to see this issue come up again and again in Indiana. I think you’re going to see that the homosexual activists are going to push for marriage, and Indiana will someday have to defend its laws or allow same-sex marriages.
“We have a very high hurdle for changing the constitution. We’ve come close.
“It would easily pass, but the House leadership does not want that to happen and has blocked it on three or four occasions. If it were allowed, it would pass easily. What the voters would do with it, I don’t know.”
Todd Woodmansee, Indianapolis lawyer
“The passage of Prop. 8 sets us back as a community, as a nation. California is such a bellwether for social progression, and we’re not getting that right now after what happened.
“The problem we run into is that people confuse the legal issue and the religious issue. If they do have the same rights, then I don’t care what you call it.
I think it’s going to be (legal) within the next five to 10 years. The (U.S.) Supreme Court is going to have to address this issue because we have so many states now that either recognize it or explicitly defy it in their constitution.
“Marriage has been redefined for years and years and years. So many things have evolved. Society has to adapt and change, and the fear-mongering that is out there is what disturbs me the most.”
Patrick Mangan, executive director, Citizens for Community Values of Indiana
“The truth is that Hoosier families are not embracing this, and that Hoosier families are not hating anyone either. People who oppose this are lovingly opposing the homosexual agenda. Where we are as a nation, this is a very contentious issue, but those who support traditional marriage care about everyone involved, including those who struggle with same-sex attraction. What we would like to do as a society is to help those to overcome it, and to avoid those harms.”
Jeff Miner, senior pastor of Jesus Metropolitan Community Church, a gay/lesbian friendly congregation
“Indiana is the only state in the nation that has successfully defeated an attempt to amend its constitution to discriminate (against) gay people. That’s something we can be proud of. It seems obvious that the religious right will continue in its efforts. ….. Our concern is that we not go backwards and use the constitution as a club. It’s always sad when any state uses its constitution to discriminate.
“Just like some churches took the lead in the black civil rights movement, I think that some churches have a right to get involved and insist that government treat people equally.”
Where Indiana stands
Indiana law defines marriage as being only between a man and a woman.
There’s no amendment in the state’s constitution banning same-sex marriage. A proposal to amend the constitution has been pushed in years past, as opponents of gay marriage fear Indiana’s judges could strike down the law. Such a ban failed to pass out of the General Assembly in 2007 and again this year, which means the lengthy process to amend the state constitution would have to start from scratch in 2009. That’s unlikely to happen.
Democratic House Speaker B. Patrick Bauer has not shown a willingness to allow a floor vote. A constitutional amendment requires passage by two separately elected legislatures, followed by the approval of voters in a general election.
If a constitutional amendment were to pass in 2009 or 2010, it would have to be approved by the General Assembly again in 2011 or 2012 before voters would have the chance to vote on the measure in the 2012 general election.
— The Indianapolis Star
Across the nation
Thirty states have passed constitutional bans on same-sex marriage, including the most recent ones voted in on Nov. 4: California, Arizona and Florida.
California, which has been viewed as a flagship for gay civil rights issues, received a lot of publicity when its ban, Proposition 8, was passed. The move could mean Indiana, as well as other states, might follow its lead or continue to move toward wider rights for gays and lesbians.
prop 8, gay marriage, Proposition 8, marriage, weddings, rights, Equal Rights, same-sex marriage, California
Not only would I never support something like Proposition 8, I’d also vote ‘no’ on Prop 24.
What is Government allowing society to breed-?
You set back in awe about the era of Sodom and Gomorrah being evil.
Wait until these types get into the educational field to instill their styles on our children then don’t ask what happened to the morals of this Nation. There isn’t any. Morals have been eliminated and been replaced by “Depravity and It’s the Law”. “What Government Breeds: Rubs off onto Society”
Is this what out Nation was founded on-? Then I vote NO.
thatsmygirl : RE: RE: Hoosiers discuss Prop. 8 and their experiences with gay marriage More..
It is really sad to see such fear and isolationist bigotry displayed. In actuality, many children have been taught by kind, loving gay/lesbian individuals through-out history. These teachers live(d) in fear of the reaction of small-minded individuals who would reject and persecute them for the sole reason that they are attracted to members of the same sex. My daughters are the subject of this article and I couldn’t be more proud of how they have chosen to live their lives. They are monogamous and loving to each other, hard-working contributors of society and wonderful additions to our family. If that were being said about a heterosexual couple, the first thought would be that they were a wonderful example; moral, just and upright. What I am hearing said by this comment is that they are deprave and immoral. Wow…..what a judgment of their entire existence!
ilovemywife : RE: Hoosiers discuss Prop. 8 and their experiences with gay marriage More..
Thanks, Mom!
AbominaNoel : RE: Hoosiers discuss Prop. 8 and their experiences with gay marriage More..
How did a post get voted out?
Chris Vannoy : RE: RE: Hoosiers discuss Prop. 8 and their experiences with gay marriage More..
If a comment drops below a certain thumbs down threshold, it will be hidden from view.
If you’d rather that not happen, you can adjust said threshold on your edit profile page.
AbominaNoel : RE: Hoosiers discuss Prop. 8 and their experiences with gay marriage More..
I’ll agree that the comment that is “hidden” was poorly written. But it still strikes me as a bad idea that a newspaper, an organization that lives and breathes the first amendment, will allow unpopular points of view to be swept under the carpet.
AbominaNoel : RE: Hoosiers discuss Prop. 8 and their experiences with gay marriage More..
I’ll agree that the post which is now “hidden” was poorly written. But you have to admit that a newspaper, an organization that lives by the first amendment, which allows unpopular points of view to be swept under the carpet is a bad idea.
Chris Vannoy : RE: RE: Hoosiers discuss Prop. 8 and their experiences with gay marriage More..
At the end of the day, we’re not determining what does or does not get hidden (except in extreme circumstances).
If you’d rather see it, thumbs-up it.
joe.shearer : RE: Hoosiers discuss Prop. 8 and their experiences with gay marriage More..
I loved Todd Cox’s point about voting against someone’s civil rights. Spot-on.
AbominaNoel : RE: Hoosiers discuss Prop. 8 and their experiences with gay marriage More..
I think that it needs to be pointed out that for a significant percentage of Americans this just is not the same as the civil rights movements for women or African Americans. Homosexuals are seen as being that way because of an act that they willfully commit. The same can’t be said for the other groups that parallels are being drawn to.
I agree that the majority should not be allowed to overrule what is right for a minority. But the majority must have a say in deciding the moral boundaries of a society.
joe.shearer : RE: RE: Hoosiers discuss Prop. 8 and their experiences with gay marriage More..
But being married is not about sex or that particular act.
This is the bottom line: a group of people are being ostracized and denied rights because of something they do (whether they choose to do it or are born that way or whatever is immaterial to the discussion, as is whether a certain group thinks their behavior is immoral). That in itself is unconstitutional and wrong.
I’d argue as well that many people who voted against it are voting “against” gay people (i.e. they’re afraid voting to shoot down the measure is acknowledging that being gay is “right” or “okay”), rather than them looking at the measure in a legal sense.
I’d argue also that the entire resolution was counter to our form of government. We have a representative democracy so our representatives, who are presumably learned and skilled in the legal process can make an informed vote, rather than leaving it in the hands of people who are voting for an ideal rather than doing what’s best for the country (or state in this case) as a whole.
Reply to CREastes1 -
Your post was so illiterate and uneducated it is difficult to even craft a reply to such propoganda.
1. There is no such thing as a “gay type”. So when you say that having these types get into the educational field will destroy the morals of our children, what you are saying does not make any sense. There are amazing teachers that are both gay and straight, just as there are lousy teachers that are both gay and straight; this is the way it is in any profession. It is a conceivable possibility that there are teachers that are gay that are not open about their sexual orientation.
2. It is not up to teachers to teach students about morality. This is a job that is for parents to do. If parents talk openly with their children about sexual orientation, it can be a teachable moment – regardless of your belief about sexual orientation. Even if you believe that it is morally wrong to be gay, then it is an opportunity to teach your children that even though we think this is wrong, is is not ok to discriminate or treat others badly because they are gay.
3. It is not up to the government to legislate morality. If it was possible to do that, then perhaps the government should take some type of action against illiterate, uneducated, ignorant people like you so “we” don’t have to deal with your “type”.
4. If you’re going to start quoting Sodom and Gomorrah, please be prepared to take literally every thing written in the Bible and follow it to the letter of the law. You don’t get to pick and choose which stories you want to follow and which stories you don’t. It doesn’t work that way and it’s becoming a little tiresome for the “Christians” to quote the passages against homosexuality and completely ignore the passages about Christ’s love.
On one last note, please do not judge someone until you know them as a person. I get to see Beth every day (every day that she’s at work I mean) and she makes a great drink. I used to have her job and I know how much I hated it and I’m glad that her personality sparkles through even when she has to deal with lousy customers. She is a great person – that has nothing to do with her sexual orientation and everything to do with just who she is.
ilovemywife : RE: RE: Hoosiers discuss Prop. 8 and their experiences with gay marriage More..
May I ask who mb3796? Thank you for the kind words.
I agree that the fact that I am gay as nothing to do with how I do my job, how I study for school, how I drive my car, how I get dressed, etc. I agree that everything can be a teaching moment and please, do NOT pick and choose from the Bible. I grew up Catholic and have learned to take everything with a grain of salt because the Bible was written a LONG time ago in a very different time and most of the stories are to get a message across. NOT to take literally! Otherwise we can stone women, never eat shell fish, and be killed for playing football!
Thanks Indy.com for this article!! :)
And congrats to Beth and Anna!! :) I went to school with Anna, she’s a wonderful person! I wish you the best!
Last time I checked, Marriage was an institution of the church, not of the state. Why I need Gov. Daniel’s blessing is beyond me. I say remove the state’s assumed authority over Marriage, and let them only assign “civil unions” for tax and inheritance purposes.
The last time I checked (to include my own) You are not legally married in Indiana until you file your STATE marriage license. The clergy are allowed, if properly licensed, to complete this form. But, until the state receives its silver, you are not married in Indiana.
Then you should check again, Filmore. Marriage is not an “institution of the church” (your words.) If it was, you would not need a license from your local government to get married, and anyone who does not believe in your god could not get married. “Holy matrimony” is the domain of the church. Marriage belongs to all of us, whether we worship god or not.
I know a few lesbian and gay couples. I may not totally agree with their way of living but they are humans. They are not forcing me to love another woman. I may not agree completely with their lifestyle. I do however believe they should not be told by the government how to live their lives. They shouldn’t be punished by not getting the same rights that a heterosexual couple gets. They have their own right to believe what they want to believe in.
Marriage is a legal institution, not a religious one. Has anyone stopped to think that by extending the “right” of marriage to gay couples we also extend the “responsibilities” as well? The problem is that this is being looked at as a religious issue, which it is not. The religious majority will always hide behind their bibles to support whatever their current view is on a certain issue, and gay marriage is just one example. Most of these religious zealots have either 1) never known a gay person or 2) have not been aware that they have. Thanks for the story, Indy.com.




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