What's a college degree worth? Ask these surviving "four freshmen" and you'll get a very politically incorrect answer.

Ross Barbour, 79, and Bob Flanigan, 81, are two native Hoosiers who attended Butler University after World War II and decided not to stick around after their freshman year.

Instead, they, along with Don Barbour and Hal Kratzsch, formed a pop vocal group in 1948 called the Four Freshmen that pioneered a fresh, jazzy sound, often singing a cappella. They'd practice in a car, or sometimes a men's room on Butler's campus -- they liked the reverb.

After playing local gigs, they dropped out of school and hit the road, bringing their distinctive sound to a growing fan base in America and abroad.

While not quite as famous as other singing groups of their era -- you probably can't name their Top 40 hits from the 1950s or remember the short-lived Stan Kenton TV show where they briefly starred -- they have proven to be long-distance runners.

Their best-known successes included "It's a Blue World" and "Graduation Day."

Flanigan stayed with the group the longest -- he stopped performing in 1992. But he was smart enough to get a lawyer and register "The Four Freshmen" name and sound. There have been at least 23 personnel changes in the group over the years, and an authorized group still tours under the name the Four Freshmen.

Flanigan helped manage the group for a while after he left the stage and Barbour worked in real estate, among other pursuits, after he stopped performing. Both are retired. Flanigan lives in Las Vegas. Barbour lives in Simi Valley, Calif.

Oh -- about being college dropouts. Barbour and Flanigan were in town recently to receive honorary degrees from their alma mater, 60 years after they left campus.

Where did you perform during your Butler days?

Ross Barbour: We would sing in restaurants. There was an ice cream store at 21st and Delaware that we'd go to at night and sing in there. ..... A bartender from the LVL Club heard us and said, "What we ought to do is get you to come out and sing at the LVL Club." That was out on Highway 37 (on the Southside) and it was an illegal place to go. They had gambling. It was open after midnight on Saturday night. We worked there three nights a week, and we swung a big contract -- we each were paid $5 a night. ..... We would go from table to table and ask, "Would you like to hear a song?" And they'd say, "Yes, sing 'Nature Boy' or sing 'White Christmas,'." and we'd try to do it.

Did your families object when you left school to go on the road?

Barbour: The folks said, "Oh, no. That's no career. Get a job in the bank or something." We didn't really listen. After we had been on the road for a few months, it was not easy. There were times when we should have quit, but then we would have had to go home and face the family.

Bob Flanigan: My dad always told me, "I want you to get a steady job." He'd always say that every time he saw me. But, no, it wasn't anything for me. I had been in the Army and I loved music.

How do you feel about getting honorary degrees?

Flanigan: I was telling Ross this morning (that) it takes a lot to excite me, because we've done about everything you can think of. But ..... (it) is the most exciting thing ..... in 20 years.

What happened 20 years ago?

Flanigan: Well, I forget her name.

What were the early years like?

Barbour: When we started the group, Hal Kratzsch had a Packard. He was the leader of the group because he had a car.

As we came on the road, the first few jobs were in Camden, Ark., and Savannah, Ga., and Sheboygan, Wis. Then my brother Don and I bought a Ford, a '36 Ford with a '41 engine in it and it didn't have a heater. It didn't have a windshield washer, either. And then one after the other, more cars were added to the group, and pretty soon there were four cars and four wives and five or six kids. There were seven or eight years when one of the wives was expecting at all times. The wives were traveling with us the first seven or eight years.

You were one of the early groups to perform mostly on college campuses. What was that like?

Flanigan: Sometimes we performed in a gym after a basketball game. A lot of the gyms that weren't finished had birds chirping. At one gym, people sat cross-legged on the gym floor and had to leave their shoes on the side. Halfway through the concert they got up to stretch. There were no seats. In North Carolina, we faced a hillside with people sitting on it. At the University of Texas, they had a huge bonfire.

Where's the worst place you performed?

Flanigan: When we played in Atlantic City, we were in the lounge and we had to do a noon show, a free show for people. We were where the buses came in. They'd give people $10 to gamble, buy 'em lunch, and they'd come down and lose their $10, have their lunch, and come back to the bus to sleep. It was right behind us.

Other groups from the '50s were more successful than you. The Four Aces, the Kingston Trio and so on... does that bother you?

Flanigan: We weren't thinking about being terribly successful. We were just thinking about what we liked. The first six or seven years, we made very little money, but that wasn't the point.

How did you get interested in music?

Flanigan: When I was a kid, I used to hitchhike up here when they had the big bands at the Circle Theatre. ..... One time I was up here for the Tommy Dorsey band. Tommy had an awful temper. That's common knowledge. Anyway, it was a tune called "Mairzy Doats," which was the worst piece of music you ever heard. Well, some guy kept bugging Tommy, "Hey, Tommy, play Mairzy Doats," and he'd say we don't do that. Well, this guy kept doing it, so Tommy took his mouthpiece out and threw it at the guy. I was hoping it would get close to me so I could say I had a Tommy Dorsey mouthpiece.

What do you think of the more recent iteration of the Four Freshmen?

Ross Barbour: I was never content with the group when I was in it, and I haven't been content with any group since then. ..... But the Freshmen have a quality that the other groups haven't even tried to do. They play and sing at the same time, complicated stuff.

On tour

The Four Freshmen still tour, albeit with newer, younger members. They'll be appearing at the Ohio State Fair on Aug. 5 and in Oslo, Norway, on Aug. 12.

Online

Read up on "the Freshmen," as they refer to themselves, on these Web sites:

www.4freshmen.com

www.fourfreshmensociety.com

Be sure to catch this very early kinescope from the mid-1950s of the Four Freshmen at www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddjWxy4tgtI

On vinyl ... or CD

Many albums by the Four Freshmen -- from various iterations of the group -- are available from online sellers, as well as "brick and mortar" record stores.

- Interview by Abe Aamidor / The Star